Pédro a écrit : Jean-Marc Labat a écrit : Où donc avez vous vu une forme tribale lors de la chute de l'empire. Les différents rois se coulent dans le moule romain qui les a influencé pendant des siècles. Il existe toujours une fonction publique qui persiste (voir Dumézil), et même si l'Etat se confond dans la personne du souverain, il subsiste. C'est très juste, mais en matière militaire l'organisation reste structurée autour de réseaux de clientèle, typiques du modèle germanique.
Pédro,
"mais en matière militaire l'organisation reste structurée autour de réseaux de clientèle, typiques du modèle germanique."
Je l'ai dit sur le site anglophone, que par coincidence j'avais cherché hier pour répondre ici sur l'origine de la féodalité européenne.
http://historum.com/european-history/13 ... alism.html
De ce site mon message 11.
"Coincidentally, while there is at this same time a debate on the French Passion Histoire about the origin of the Western Feudalism, I did some research on the internet. In the time of the BBC history board I did already research and I recall that there was said that one of the origins was the existing Roman infrastructure now in turmoil from the fifth to the ninth century. And as the central ruling didn't exist anymore the former "latifundia", as they had already that system from before, the local landlord with his "clientes", this system evolved in these troubled times in a kind of lord-vassal relation.
From the Germanic side and even from the Gaulish side, this kind of lord-vassal relation had in the beginning not to make with land gifts, but more with gifts nothing to do with land, while land in these early times was a common property. It was only later when the "king" emerged from those Germanic peoples, considering his land as his own property, that the king could give land in "fief" to people worthwhile in his eyes to receive it. These people I suppose! could then give parts of these fiefs to others in the same lord-vassal relation? And so Feodalism was born.
I found this in preparation for Passion Histoire today.
European Feudalism
From this link
"The Development of European Feudalism The first elements of European Feudalism appeared in France and Germany in the 9th and 10th centuries. This coincided with the great military force organised by the Normans. Elements of the Roman regime were transferred to European feudalism. Roman villas and their lands were granted to military leaders on a temporary basis as a reward for their loyalty to Rome and the emperor. It was also traditional for Romans to surround themselves with loyal soldiers who provided a substantial fighting force and offered protection. These ideas were adopted in Europe. European nobles increased their power from grants of land from the king in return for military service. European feudalism was born."
And the "about us"
Siteseen Ltd
And a French language site: Encyclopédie Imagomundi
This article is more in depth but in French and there is not a "source" and not a "name", the same as for the former link!
Origine et formation du système féodal en France.
And the "about us" says something that it is a personal site from a non-specialist, who treats the subjects as honest as possible.
Courrier.
Authun, as these are not authorative sites as Jstor and all, aren't there not more scientific articles with an author and a source, which are more the normal scientific and historical approach?
I know, some personal amateur historians are sometimes better than the official ones, but in my opinion they have to be debated on university level to come to a conclusion or the agreement that there is not yet a conclusion possible.
"Coincidentally, while there is at this same time a debate on the French Passion Histoire about the origin of the Western Feudalism, I did some research on the internet. In the time of the BBC history board I did already research and I recall that there was said that one of the origins was the existing Roman infrastructure now in turmoil from the fifth to the ninth century. And as the central ruling didn't exist anymore the former "latifundia", as they had already that system from before, the local landlord with his "clientes", this system evolved in these troubled times in a kind of lord-vassal relation.
From the Germanic side and even from the Gaulish side, this kind of lord-vassal relation had in the beginning not to make with land gifts, but more with gifts nothing to do with land, while land in these early times was a common property. It was only later when the "king" emerged from those Germanic peoples, considering his land as his own property, that the king could give land in "fief" to people worthwhile in his eyes to receive it. These people I suppose! could then give parts of these fiefs to others in the same lord-vassal relation? And so Feodalism was born."
Par coincidence, parce que on a le même debat sur le site Passion Histoire concernant l'origine de la féodalité européenne, j'ai fait quelques recherches sur le net. Dans le temps du forum histoire du BBC j'avais fait déja de la recherche et je me souviens qu'on a dit que une des origines était l'infrastructure romaine existante, qui était maintenant en ruines du 5 au 9iéme siècle. Et comme le gouvernement central n'excistait plus, les "latifundia" antérieurs, un système qui existait déja en avant, gérés par un "seigneur" local avec ses "clientes", évoluait dans un système, dans ces temps troublés, d'une sorte de "seigneur-vassal" relation.
Du coté Germanique et aussi du coté Gaulois, ce genre de relation avait au commencement rien à voir avec des dons de terres , comme les terres dans ces temps antérieurs étaient des terres en commun, mais plutôt avec des dons pas relatés à des terres. Ce n'était que seulement quand un "roi" était émergé parmi ces peuples germaniques, un roi, qui considerait ses terres comme sa propréité privée, que le roi pouvait donner des terres en fief à des personnes, qu'ils méritaient dans ses yeux de le recevoir. Ces personnes (je suppose!) pouvaient alors à leur tour donner une part de son fief à d'autres dans le même relation seigneur-vassal? Et la feodalitè était née.
Pedro, je sais que vous êtes un érudite dans cette matière et je ne veux nullement prétendre d' avoir trouvé quelque chose. Juste je veux avoir votre opinion concernant tout ça.
D'ailleurs mes deux sources ne sont pas académiques, comme j'ai d'ailleurs dit dans mon message en anglais.
La deuxième source est en français d'un site que je ne connais pas: Encyclopédie ImagoMundi:
http://www.cosmovisions.com/feodalite-formation.htm
Cordialement, Paul.
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